You know, I've seen that there is a wave of people coming off the carnivore diet? We're so aware of ex-vegans, but it's actually full of ex-carnivores out there as well. I think it's a weight-loss fad.
Absolutely, Sascha! As I mention in the article: even Paul Saladino, previously known as Carnivore MD, recently abandoned the diet after experiencing a drop in testosterone levels, sleep disturbances, heart palpitations, and muscle cramps.
Experts stress that short-term weight loss on a carnivore diet is not due to the consumption of meat, but rather the elimination of processed foods and sugar. It doesn't eliminate the serious long-term health risks of meat consumption - see question 5 above.
I’d love to get anyone’s thoughts on this. Of course, this is only about the cancer claim, so it says nothing of diabetes, cholesterol or any other health issues, nor the environmental and animal welfare issues, but if this has validity to it, I wonder if we can still make this claim about red meat.
First of all, it is super important to not let such "news" distract us from the fact that - as you also mentioned - red meat consumption causes massive harm and destruction in any case. Many people will read headlines like this and take it as an invitation to consume (more) red meat.
That said, I also don't really buy the conclusion Nina Teichholz is drawing in her article. When you check out her work, it seems a bit dodgy, to be honest. She doesn't provide enough evidence to make a convincing case against the WHO assessment regarding the carcinogenicity of red meat. I get the impression she is just trying to get attention. If there were credible reasons to overthrow the WHO assessment, this would certainly be big news. But you barely find anything about it online - at least not from authoritative sources.
Of course, to your first point, it was definitely disappointing to see the comments section in that newsletter and see how people are running away with it and using it to justify many fallacious positions. If I could comment 1 thing on that SubStack, that would be it (I’m not a paid subscriber of that SubStack though)
That’s interesting that there isn’t a ton online about what Teichholz is saying, but I’m not sure if that means what she’s saying has no merit. The media definitely fails to cover many substantive stories fully all the time, and this could be one such example. What about her case wasn’t convincing to you? I felt that some of the statements made by some of the lead researchers shutting down criticism or the fact that not a lot of studies were looked at by the researchers and some of the studies’ conclusions were over-extended at least left me with some questions about the conclusion
I get your points. But instead of losing ourselves in unconfirmed details, we should focus on what's real and important: high meat consumption, overall, is unhealthy, unsustainable, anti-social, and cruel to animals. As long as we can agree on this, we should reach the same conclusion :)
This made me laugh - and given the urgency of this topic, I absolutely get your impatience, David. However, I strongly believe that whenever we are strong enough, we should stay open and polite. I know I don't manage to always live up to this ideal myself. But one thing is clear: insults will never inspire or positively influence anyone. And this is what we need, if we want to be responsible advocates for animal rights, human rights, and environmental/climate protection. In any case, thanks for stopping by and have a nice day!
A lot of these questions could have been posed to vegans not that long ago. Health isn’t why people should go vegan, it never was. It very well may be perfectly healthy to exclusively eat meat, probably not, but since we don’t have the studies, and we have examples of people who have purportedly done it for years, we have little reason to assume it isn’t. I find it suspicious that vitamin A would be low on a carnivore diet, all you have to do is eat liver.
Hey, first of all thanks for taking the time and sharing your thoughts.
You say: "It very well may be perfectly healthy to exclusively eat meat" -> There is clear international scientific consensus that high meat consumption carries significant health risks. This isn't speculation, and it also isn't vegan propaganda. There are hundreds of renowned studies on this, and all authoritative expert bodies around the globe have unanimously confirmed it.
You say: "Health isn’t why people should go vegan" -> I agree. But it remains important to debunk 'carnivore' misinformation. In other articles, I put a focus on the ethical aspects of veganism. See, for example: https://veganhorizon.substack.com/p/livestock-farming-is-the-greatest
You know, I've seen that there is a wave of people coming off the carnivore diet? We're so aware of ex-vegans, but it's actually full of ex-carnivores out there as well. I think it's a weight-loss fad.
Absolutely, Sascha! As I mention in the article: even Paul Saladino, previously known as Carnivore MD, recently abandoned the diet after experiencing a drop in testosterone levels, sleep disturbances, heart palpitations, and muscle cramps.
Experts stress that short-term weight loss on a carnivore diet is not due to the consumption of meat, but rather the elimination of processed foods and sugar. It doesn't eliminate the serious long-term health risks of meat consumption - see question 5 above.
Interesting point although I don’t know of any ex vegans.
fantastic research, here, thank you!
Thanks for your feedback, much appreciated <3
Nice overview, thanks for pulling all that together
Good to see you, Sarah :) And thanks for your feedback!
Congrats, Pala! I just saw that your article is blowing up on the vegan subreddit. :)
Not at all defending the carnivore diet here and this stuff is definitely above my pay grade, but I read an article from a different SubStack that seems to say that some the science linking red meat to cancer was really methodologically flawed: https://open.substack.com/pub/unsettledscience/p/do-red-and-processed-meats-cause?r=byoys&utm_medium=ios
I’d love to get anyone’s thoughts on this. Of course, this is only about the cancer claim, so it says nothing of diabetes, cholesterol or any other health issues, nor the environmental and animal welfare issues, but if this has validity to it, I wonder if we can still make this claim about red meat.
First of all, it is super important to not let such "news" distract us from the fact that - as you also mentioned - red meat consumption causes massive harm and destruction in any case. Many people will read headlines like this and take it as an invitation to consume (more) red meat.
That said, I also don't really buy the conclusion Nina Teichholz is drawing in her article. When you check out her work, it seems a bit dodgy, to be honest. She doesn't provide enough evidence to make a convincing case against the WHO assessment regarding the carcinogenicity of red meat. I get the impression she is just trying to get attention. If there were credible reasons to overthrow the WHO assessment, this would certainly be big news. But you barely find anything about it online - at least not from authoritative sources.
Of course, to your first point, it was definitely disappointing to see the comments section in that newsletter and see how people are running away with it and using it to justify many fallacious positions. If I could comment 1 thing on that SubStack, that would be it (I’m not a paid subscriber of that SubStack though)
That’s interesting that there isn’t a ton online about what Teichholz is saying, but I’m not sure if that means what she’s saying has no merit. The media definitely fails to cover many substantive stories fully all the time, and this could be one such example. What about her case wasn’t convincing to you? I felt that some of the statements made by some of the lead researchers shutting down criticism or the fact that not a lot of studies were looked at by the researchers and some of the studies’ conclusions were over-extended at least left me with some questions about the conclusion
I get your points. But instead of losing ourselves in unconfirmed details, we should focus on what's real and important: high meat consumption, overall, is unhealthy, unsustainable, anti-social, and cruel to animals. As long as we can agree on this, we should reach the same conclusion :)
Question 8 could be : Why are you such a dick? Or whatever the fem term might very well be. Yep I am impolite impatient and self righteous but vegan.
This made me laugh - and given the urgency of this topic, I absolutely get your impatience, David. However, I strongly believe that whenever we are strong enough, we should stay open and polite. I know I don't manage to always live up to this ideal myself. But one thing is clear: insults will never inspire or positively influence anyone. And this is what we need, if we want to be responsible advocates for animal rights, human rights, and environmental/climate protection. In any case, thanks for stopping by and have a nice day!
Totally agree but sometimes a wee rant helps. I try to lead by example.
A lot of these questions could have been posed to vegans not that long ago. Health isn’t why people should go vegan, it never was. It very well may be perfectly healthy to exclusively eat meat, probably not, but since we don’t have the studies, and we have examples of people who have purportedly done it for years, we have little reason to assume it isn’t. I find it suspicious that vitamin A would be low on a carnivore diet, all you have to do is eat liver.
Hey, first of all thanks for taking the time and sharing your thoughts.
You say: "It very well may be perfectly healthy to exclusively eat meat" -> There is clear international scientific consensus that high meat consumption carries significant health risks. This isn't speculation, and it also isn't vegan propaganda. There are hundreds of renowned studies on this, and all authoritative expert bodies around the globe have unanimously confirmed it.
You say: "Health isn’t why people should go vegan" -> I agree. But it remains important to debunk 'carnivore' misinformation. In other articles, I put a focus on the ethical aspects of veganism. See, for example: https://veganhorizon.substack.com/p/livestock-farming-is-the-greatest
Have a good day!