Another great read, thank you. I like your point about the cowardice of simply following the majority when if eating animals was a minority stance, very few people would be speaking up for it. I am reminded of my routinely cowardly behaviour in not speaking up for the animals when opportunities arise in everyday life and I look for reasons why ''it's not the right moment'' to say something -meaning in reality that I don't want the social discomfort in that moment of upsetting someone I care about or even just being seen as preachy. I will do better.
Hi Sarah, happy to hear that you like the article! I was also amazed by the different arguments that came up in the process of researching / brainstorming for this article. If eating animals was a minority stance, only absolute lunatics would speak up for it. No doubt about that.
When it comes to opportunities for advocating veganism in everyday life, don't be too hard on yourself. If you don't feel like it, don't force yourself. Everyday vegan outreach is a subtle art. One that I certainly haven't mastered myself. But I think one of the most important aspects is to identify the opportunities with real potential: these moments where people around us seem somehow open and receptive. We don't want to speak to their inner demons and cognitive dissonance, we want to speak to their hearts.
Anyway, I'm sure you could teach me more about this than I can teach you. :) Have a wonderful day, Sarah, and talk soon!
Inside your mouth tells you what you are meant to eat ! A horse has teeth for eating grass , a dog has teeth for eating meat and us as humans have teeth designed to eat meat and vegetables it really is that simple! And meat is actually delicious 😋!
Hi James, first of all, thanks for leaving a comment. I hope we can have an honest exchange here.
Science is clear: we don’t need meat at all. We are actually healthier without it. A plant-based diet is the best choice not only for our own health but also to protect animals, climate, exploited humans, and the environment. I‘m happy to provide sources if you need any.
If you confine, torment, and slaughter animals without any necessity - or pay other people to do it - you are a coward (I used to be, too). In my article above, I explain why. Let me know if anything is unclear and have a nice day.
Is it, though? I read about vegans eating cashew and almond "milk" and "cheese" (or just straight up nuts) and the freshwater requirements for both of these per weight are comparable to chicken in the case of cashews, and by far much worse in the case of almonds.
Secondly, science is not "clear" here: veganism is not a naturally sustainable diet. You need at the very minimum additional B12 since it isn't possible to meet your B12 requirements without supplementation, and for some people, additional supplementation is required.
I constantly hear from the vegans I know how much they need to eat (as a "carnist," I eat two reasonable sized meals a day, and seldom snack), and their complaints about brain fog, depression, anxiety, and frequent physical injuries. They all claim that it couldn't possibly be the dietary aspect of their veganism.
Furthermore, if veganism is so wonderful, why are vegans constantly trying to satisfy cravings they have that carry over from their "pre-vegan" days by making products that simulate items containing animal products?
I also find it laughable that cow milk (and the things made from it) is called "secretions" when humans consume it, but "food for calves" at the same time. This sounds like absurdist propagandistic double-speak meant to make dairy sound distastefully disgusting and create a taboo against it while simultaneously acknowledging that it is a nutrient-rich source of food.
As someone with Crohn's Disease, I have learned that the best way that I can take care of myself is to listen to my body's cravings since due to multiple surgeries, I have far less intestine (and no terminal ileum, which is where most iron, B12, and many other essential vitamins and minerals are primarily absorbed) than the majority of people. When my body desperately craves beef, I generally need heme iron and a big hit of protein. Veganism isn't even an option for me: insoluble fibre is to be avoided at all costs, and simple carbs and meat are the recommendations of all doctors I've had. In fact, I eat more fruit and veg than I should, since I just so happen to enjoy the taste of a diverse range of them, but I'm not going to "be a brave vegan warrior for the animals" and put my life at risk, which will already be shortened due to this health condition, and my experience is that almost no vegans I have met will acknowledge that there are people like me out there that do not even have the luxury of choice to be vegan if we wanted to.
Oh, and by the way, I have killed my own animals for food. I certainly don't enjoy it by any means, but I am able to do it. I don't consider it an act of bravery, but it does give me an appreciation for the lives of animals. Personally, I don't particularly like most animals nor do I care about them, but I don't wish ill upon them.
On the water footprint of cashews and almonds: I personally don't eat much of this stuff. I'm fine with products like oat milk, which have a vastly superior environmental footprint. Also, water footprint is just one of many areas where animal agriculture causes harm. The livestock sector also causes animal suffering of unimaginable proportions and heavily contributes to rainforest destruction, ocean dead zones, soil degradation, biodiversity loss, air pollution, antibiotic resistance, displacement of indigenous people, pandemic risk, and world hunger. Focusing on water footprint only is a very narrow view of the issue.
I personally enjoy eating, so I don't mind "eating much" to be honest. I actually think it's a great feature of veganism to be able to eat big amounts without worrying about my health or body weight.
Yes, cow milk is nutrient-rich, but it obviously isn't meant for human consumption. Dairy consumption brings various health risks, mainly related to the sexual hormones and growth hormones (IGF-1) contained in it. There are hundreds of studies on this.
I'm very sorry to hear that you're dealing with Crohn's Disease. Consuming animal products when you absolutely need to doesn't even go against the definition of veganism: "Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals."
Nothing is "meant" for anything: nature simply flows along, doing its thing. We clearly can drink cow's milk, so the fact that it came into existence to feed baby calves is irrelevant. Kale's purpose is not to serve as food to you, either, but you eat it nonetheless. Animals seek out and eat each other's eggs, which "obviously isn't meant" for their consumption. Meaning only exists in your mind: certainly, some things came into being with a primary purpose, but using them for other purposes doesn't void some universal quality.
At least you are cognizant of the freshwater footprint of almonds and cashews: many vegans claim to be "for the environment" but are not. I am aware that animal agriculture is a blight upon the land. I'm not convinced that vegan agriculture would do much more than delay the inevitable destruction that humans are almost certain to face. In other words, I don't really care. With a population of eight billion, to avoid our own destruction, we would all likely have had to dramatically switch our lifestyle immediately if not a decade ago, which is an optimist's pipe dream. We are the organism in the petri dish that will continue to thrive and reach a tipping point when we die. I don't particularly care: I have no particular investment in the continued existence of life on Earth either way.
Regarding supplementation, yes, I was aware that many humans are below the currently determined optimal levels of certain vitamins and minerals (e.g. B12 and D) and supplementing can just generally improve quality of life, but - and this is anecdotal only, of course, so not to be taken as evidence - I know zero people without health conditions that are omnivorous and have experienced B12 deficiency induced neuropathy. I have mild B12 induced neuropathy (my B12 levels were so low to be considered undetectable because of Crohn's) and require supplementation of B12 and D. I know vegans who did not supplement with B12 and also had either temporary and mostly reversible B12 deficiency induced neuropathy or something more permanent: the difference is in the level of deficiency... it's not a binary status of deficient versus not deficient.
In any case, you certainly have a much more optimistic view of humans than I do. That being said, I live my life quite happily all the same.
Thank you for the well wishes. Consider them returned in duplicate! Take care.
Thanks for your elaborate response. Just two remarks:
You say "We clearly can drink cow's milk, so the fact that it came into existence to feed baby calves is irrelevant." -> Yes, it is relevant. For mainly two reasons: (1) the composition of cow's milk is optimized for the nutritional needs of fast-growing ruminants and, for this reason, brings several health risks for humans; (2) taking the milk from cows requires several forms of animal abuse (incl. repeated forced impregnation and taking babies away from their mothers).
You say "many vegans claim to be 'for the environment' but are not." --> It is no secret that living vegan, overall, is vastly superior in literally all areas of the environmental footprint. This isn't vegan propaganda, this is international scientific consensus.
It's fair to believe that humanity is doomed. I think there is still good reason for hope - especially when you consider the huge amount of resources that would be set free, for example, by a transition towards a plant-based food system: https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets
And even if there isn't hope, I don't think that gives us the right to needlessly exploit innocent sentient beings. (In the case of your disease, I don't consider it "needless", of course, but for most people it is.)
By all means, wallow in your superiority. It doesn't bother me in the slightest.
What the composition of cow's milk is optimized for is not relevant: the fact that is still has nutritional value to us is the only relevance. You have no hesitation eating broccoli despite the fact that it has not been optimized for your nutritional needs. Many of the foods that we eat carry some level of health risk: I am not concerned about any risk from the consumption of dairy.
I've seen the videos of bull semen being collected and cows being impregnated, which hardly seems like it bothers either. I've seen the videos of cows having their babies taken away. None of that particularly bothers me.
Many vegans believe their actions are environmentally superior but are completely ignorant, e.g. the ones I referenced earlier from a discussion I read on vegan communities on reddit about how they just cannot eat enough cashews, where cashew growth takes a toll on the environment and on humanity in that the processing of cashews is done typically in very poor countries, carries severe health risks, and the workers are denied proper protective gear to keep themselves safe. The vegan superiority complex is uninteresting and not particularly persuasive.
Most of the vegans I have met online are terrible people: miserable because even outside of ag, in the wild, animals constantly struggle and suffer, and they cannot accept the reality of the situation... how many times I have had to read about how sick a vegan felt watching shameless carnists shove rotting animal corpses and secretions into their bloodmouths. No laughter, no joy... many of them single because veganism is such a central and defining characteristic of their lives that they cannot date anyone but another vegan, and vegans comprise less than 2% of the population, and even then, veganism often devolves into a competitive sport and a purity contest, where people live in delusions about having accidentally consumed a minutiae of animal product accidentally, like somehow that invalidates their veganism and they have to start back at the beginning. So many people who are misanthropes because they watch some film like Dominion or Earthlings and then are horrified, decide to become vegan, and are outraged and upset because their friends and family don't follow suit: narcissistic tripe (pun only slightly intended) where they expect the rest of the world to follow in their footsteps.
Oh, and then the delightful vegans who have a one bit CPU: many of them came to veganism through a process, first going vegetarian, and then transitioning into veganism, and not changing overnight like flicking a switch. Despite that, when someone expresses an interest in exploring veganism, which is an enormous change to one's life as it requires scanning ingredients, researching products, learning new recipes, balancing food carefully, meal planning, etc, and think that they'd like to try out perhaps a couple of days of veganism per week, they are actively shunned and discouraged by the vegan community because "encouraging people like that is like congratulating someone on only kicking a puppy five times a week instead of seven."
I do appreciate that you acknowledge that for some people, an exclusively plant-based diet is not feasible. You don't strike me as fitting the nonsense I mentioned above, and I understand that the entire vegan community is not like that: those are often just the loudest voices that drown out the much more likely moderate and sane majority.
I do agree with you that animals are exploited in ag and other industries such as medicine and cosmetics: the situation is hardly ideal, but whether or not it's a battle that one wishes to fight is a personal decision. In my case, again, it's not an option, but in honesty, even if it was, I likely would not. (I would certainly take advantage of the opportunity to consume much more fruits, vegetables, and legumes, as I do love them, and reduce my animal product consumption, but I would never dedicate myself to veganism.)
We can discuss until we're blue in the face. I absolutely acknowledge some of your points. Others, I see as partially true but exaggerated. The fact of the matter is that I just don't care that much. Does that make me a terrible person? Maybe on some levels, but again, I don't particularly care. With the spoons I have, there are other battles I would rather fight, and other pursuits I would rather explore. It doesn't boil down to, "I could never give up cheese and bacon," like many vegans stereotype us "carnists:" I could give those things up (well, cheese is surprisingly extremely good for my Crohn's), but the impetus to do so simply isn't pressing to me. Veganism on a large scale is not something that is going to happen any time in the foreseeable future. I appreciate the intent of your efforts and acknowledge that you do care about this issue in a way that is meaningful. I really do wish you the best.
A tip: calling consumers of animal products "cowards" is not going to convince anyone to transition into veganism: it's simply going to serve as confirmation bias to those that are already vegan and in some people, enhance the superiority complex they hold.
(Final note: I have met perfectly wonderful vegans who seem to be healthy and happy, and attempt to lead by example. I have also met eye-rolling vegans who freak out because they didn't realize that a recipe on a product had changed and they consumed a few molecules of gelatin, like it's some kind of absolute crisis. It's a diverse community, I understand.)
Wow, Pala, you are not pulling your punches. Great article!
Thank you so much, Louise ❤️🙏 We have just begun to fight. And we shall not rest until this industry is gone forever.
Great article! Very good points.
Thank you! I just started this blog, and really appreciate your interest in my work. Have a wonderful day.
Another great read, thank you. I like your point about the cowardice of simply following the majority when if eating animals was a minority stance, very few people would be speaking up for it. I am reminded of my routinely cowardly behaviour in not speaking up for the animals when opportunities arise in everyday life and I look for reasons why ''it's not the right moment'' to say something -meaning in reality that I don't want the social discomfort in that moment of upsetting someone I care about or even just being seen as preachy. I will do better.
Hi Sarah, happy to hear that you like the article! I was also amazed by the different arguments that came up in the process of researching / brainstorming for this article. If eating animals was a minority stance, only absolute lunatics would speak up for it. No doubt about that.
When it comes to opportunities for advocating veganism in everyday life, don't be too hard on yourself. If you don't feel like it, don't force yourself. Everyday vegan outreach is a subtle art. One that I certainly haven't mastered myself. But I think one of the most important aspects is to identify the opportunities with real potential: these moments where people around us seem somehow open and receptive. We don't want to speak to their inner demons and cognitive dissonance, we want to speak to their hearts.
Anyway, I'm sure you could teach me more about this than I can teach you. :) Have a wonderful day, Sarah, and talk soon!
It’s never too late to do the right thing! Go vegan!
Yep, exactly! ❤️
Inside your mouth tells you what you are meant to eat ! A horse has teeth for eating grass , a dog has teeth for eating meat and us as humans have teeth designed to eat meat and vegetables it really is that simple! And meat is actually delicious 😋!
Hi James, first of all, thanks for leaving a comment. I hope we can have an honest exchange here.
Science is clear: we don’t need meat at all. We are actually healthier without it. A plant-based diet is the best choice not only for our own health but also to protect animals, climate, exploited humans, and the environment. I‘m happy to provide sources if you need any.
If you confine, torment, and slaughter animals without any necessity - or pay other people to do it - you are a coward (I used to be, too). In my article above, I explain why. Let me know if anything is unclear and have a nice day.
Is it, though? I read about vegans eating cashew and almond "milk" and "cheese" (or just straight up nuts) and the freshwater requirements for both of these per weight are comparable to chicken in the case of cashews, and by far much worse in the case of almonds.
Secondly, science is not "clear" here: veganism is not a naturally sustainable diet. You need at the very minimum additional B12 since it isn't possible to meet your B12 requirements without supplementation, and for some people, additional supplementation is required.
I constantly hear from the vegans I know how much they need to eat (as a "carnist," I eat two reasonable sized meals a day, and seldom snack), and their complaints about brain fog, depression, anxiety, and frequent physical injuries. They all claim that it couldn't possibly be the dietary aspect of their veganism.
Furthermore, if veganism is so wonderful, why are vegans constantly trying to satisfy cravings they have that carry over from their "pre-vegan" days by making products that simulate items containing animal products?
I also find it laughable that cow milk (and the things made from it) is called "secretions" when humans consume it, but "food for calves" at the same time. This sounds like absurdist propagandistic double-speak meant to make dairy sound distastefully disgusting and create a taboo against it while simultaneously acknowledging that it is a nutrient-rich source of food.
As someone with Crohn's Disease, I have learned that the best way that I can take care of myself is to listen to my body's cravings since due to multiple surgeries, I have far less intestine (and no terminal ileum, which is where most iron, B12, and many other essential vitamins and minerals are primarily absorbed) than the majority of people. When my body desperately craves beef, I generally need heme iron and a big hit of protein. Veganism isn't even an option for me: insoluble fibre is to be avoided at all costs, and simple carbs and meat are the recommendations of all doctors I've had. In fact, I eat more fruit and veg than I should, since I just so happen to enjoy the taste of a diverse range of them, but I'm not going to "be a brave vegan warrior for the animals" and put my life at risk, which will already be shortened due to this health condition, and my experience is that almost no vegans I have met will acknowledge that there are people like me out there that do not even have the luxury of choice to be vegan if we wanted to.
Oh, and by the way, I have killed my own animals for food. I certainly don't enjoy it by any means, but I am able to do it. I don't consider it an act of bravery, but it does give me an appreciation for the lives of animals. Personally, I don't particularly like most animals nor do I care about them, but I don't wish ill upon them.
Hi, thanks for sharing your thoughts!
On the water footprint of cashews and almonds: I personally don't eat much of this stuff. I'm fine with products like oat milk, which have a vastly superior environmental footprint. Also, water footprint is just one of many areas where animal agriculture causes harm. The livestock sector also causes animal suffering of unimaginable proportions and heavily contributes to rainforest destruction, ocean dead zones, soil degradation, biodiversity loss, air pollution, antibiotic resistance, displacement of indigenous people, pandemic risk, and world hunger. Focusing on water footprint only is a very narrow view of the issue.
On B12: please read these subsections here: https://veganhorizon.substack.com/i/146062351/a-common-misconception
I personally enjoy eating, so I don't mind "eating much" to be honest. I actually think it's a great feature of veganism to be able to eat big amounts without worrying about my health or body weight.
Yes, cow milk is nutrient-rich, but it obviously isn't meant for human consumption. Dairy consumption brings various health risks, mainly related to the sexual hormones and growth hormones (IGF-1) contained in it. There are hundreds of studies on this.
I'm very sorry to hear that you're dealing with Crohn's Disease. Consuming animal products when you absolutely need to doesn't even go against the definition of veganism: "Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals."
Hope you're having a good day!
Nothing is "meant" for anything: nature simply flows along, doing its thing. We clearly can drink cow's milk, so the fact that it came into existence to feed baby calves is irrelevant. Kale's purpose is not to serve as food to you, either, but you eat it nonetheless. Animals seek out and eat each other's eggs, which "obviously isn't meant" for their consumption. Meaning only exists in your mind: certainly, some things came into being with a primary purpose, but using them for other purposes doesn't void some universal quality.
At least you are cognizant of the freshwater footprint of almonds and cashews: many vegans claim to be "for the environment" but are not. I am aware that animal agriculture is a blight upon the land. I'm not convinced that vegan agriculture would do much more than delay the inevitable destruction that humans are almost certain to face. In other words, I don't really care. With a population of eight billion, to avoid our own destruction, we would all likely have had to dramatically switch our lifestyle immediately if not a decade ago, which is an optimist's pipe dream. We are the organism in the petri dish that will continue to thrive and reach a tipping point when we die. I don't particularly care: I have no particular investment in the continued existence of life on Earth either way.
Regarding supplementation, yes, I was aware that many humans are below the currently determined optimal levels of certain vitamins and minerals (e.g. B12 and D) and supplementing can just generally improve quality of life, but - and this is anecdotal only, of course, so not to be taken as evidence - I know zero people without health conditions that are omnivorous and have experienced B12 deficiency induced neuropathy. I have mild B12 induced neuropathy (my B12 levels were so low to be considered undetectable because of Crohn's) and require supplementation of B12 and D. I know vegans who did not supplement with B12 and also had either temporary and mostly reversible B12 deficiency induced neuropathy or something more permanent: the difference is in the level of deficiency... it's not a binary status of deficient versus not deficient.
In any case, you certainly have a much more optimistic view of humans than I do. That being said, I live my life quite happily all the same.
Thank you for the well wishes. Consider them returned in duplicate! Take care.
Thanks for your elaborate response. Just two remarks:
You say "We clearly can drink cow's milk, so the fact that it came into existence to feed baby calves is irrelevant." -> Yes, it is relevant. For mainly two reasons: (1) the composition of cow's milk is optimized for the nutritional needs of fast-growing ruminants and, for this reason, brings several health risks for humans; (2) taking the milk from cows requires several forms of animal abuse (incl. repeated forced impregnation and taking babies away from their mothers).
You say "many vegans claim to be 'for the environment' but are not." --> It is no secret that living vegan, overall, is vastly superior in literally all areas of the environmental footprint. This isn't vegan propaganda, this is international scientific consensus.
It's fair to believe that humanity is doomed. I think there is still good reason for hope - especially when you consider the huge amount of resources that would be set free, for example, by a transition towards a plant-based food system: https://ourworldindata.org/land-use-diets
And even if there isn't hope, I don't think that gives us the right to needlessly exploit innocent sentient beings. (In the case of your disease, I don't consider it "needless", of course, but for most people it is.)
All the best!
By all means, wallow in your superiority. It doesn't bother me in the slightest.
What the composition of cow's milk is optimized for is not relevant: the fact that is still has nutritional value to us is the only relevance. You have no hesitation eating broccoli despite the fact that it has not been optimized for your nutritional needs. Many of the foods that we eat carry some level of health risk: I am not concerned about any risk from the consumption of dairy.
I've seen the videos of bull semen being collected and cows being impregnated, which hardly seems like it bothers either. I've seen the videos of cows having their babies taken away. None of that particularly bothers me.
Many vegans believe their actions are environmentally superior but are completely ignorant, e.g. the ones I referenced earlier from a discussion I read on vegan communities on reddit about how they just cannot eat enough cashews, where cashew growth takes a toll on the environment and on humanity in that the processing of cashews is done typically in very poor countries, carries severe health risks, and the workers are denied proper protective gear to keep themselves safe. The vegan superiority complex is uninteresting and not particularly persuasive.
Most of the vegans I have met online are terrible people: miserable because even outside of ag, in the wild, animals constantly struggle and suffer, and they cannot accept the reality of the situation... how many times I have had to read about how sick a vegan felt watching shameless carnists shove rotting animal corpses and secretions into their bloodmouths. No laughter, no joy... many of them single because veganism is such a central and defining characteristic of their lives that they cannot date anyone but another vegan, and vegans comprise less than 2% of the population, and even then, veganism often devolves into a competitive sport and a purity contest, where people live in delusions about having accidentally consumed a minutiae of animal product accidentally, like somehow that invalidates their veganism and they have to start back at the beginning. So many people who are misanthropes because they watch some film like Dominion or Earthlings and then are horrified, decide to become vegan, and are outraged and upset because their friends and family don't follow suit: narcissistic tripe (pun only slightly intended) where they expect the rest of the world to follow in their footsteps.
Oh, and then the delightful vegans who have a one bit CPU: many of them came to veganism through a process, first going vegetarian, and then transitioning into veganism, and not changing overnight like flicking a switch. Despite that, when someone expresses an interest in exploring veganism, which is an enormous change to one's life as it requires scanning ingredients, researching products, learning new recipes, balancing food carefully, meal planning, etc, and think that they'd like to try out perhaps a couple of days of veganism per week, they are actively shunned and discouraged by the vegan community because "encouraging people like that is like congratulating someone on only kicking a puppy five times a week instead of seven."
I do appreciate that you acknowledge that for some people, an exclusively plant-based diet is not feasible. You don't strike me as fitting the nonsense I mentioned above, and I understand that the entire vegan community is not like that: those are often just the loudest voices that drown out the much more likely moderate and sane majority.
I do agree with you that animals are exploited in ag and other industries such as medicine and cosmetics: the situation is hardly ideal, but whether or not it's a battle that one wishes to fight is a personal decision. In my case, again, it's not an option, but in honesty, even if it was, I likely would not. (I would certainly take advantage of the opportunity to consume much more fruits, vegetables, and legumes, as I do love them, and reduce my animal product consumption, but I would never dedicate myself to veganism.)
We can discuss until we're blue in the face. I absolutely acknowledge some of your points. Others, I see as partially true but exaggerated. The fact of the matter is that I just don't care that much. Does that make me a terrible person? Maybe on some levels, but again, I don't particularly care. With the spoons I have, there are other battles I would rather fight, and other pursuits I would rather explore. It doesn't boil down to, "I could never give up cheese and bacon," like many vegans stereotype us "carnists:" I could give those things up (well, cheese is surprisingly extremely good for my Crohn's), but the impetus to do so simply isn't pressing to me. Veganism on a large scale is not something that is going to happen any time in the foreseeable future. I appreciate the intent of your efforts and acknowledge that you do care about this issue in a way that is meaningful. I really do wish you the best.
A tip: calling consumers of animal products "cowards" is not going to convince anyone to transition into veganism: it's simply going to serve as confirmation bias to those that are already vegan and in some people, enhance the superiority complex they hold.
(Final note: I have met perfectly wonderful vegans who seem to be healthy and happy, and attempt to lead by example. I have also met eye-rolling vegans who freak out because they didn't realize that a recipe on a product had changed and they consumed a few molecules of gelatin, like it's some kind of absolute crisis. It's a diverse community, I understand.)